Trial Lawyer View Podcast
Chris F.N. Rose

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:00:00

Case. Referrals are not an old pair of shoes on eBay. You don't just send them out. In most jurisdictions you have to have proportional work. So you have to have done some work on it, or you have to have joint responsibility for the outcome. And that means somebody screws this up. Your malpractice insurance has to attach.

Jason D. Lazarus00:00:17

That's Chris Rose, founder of LegalFlare, who built the most comprehensive US database of referral fee rules of professional conduct. He believes case referrals are not simple handoffs. They require shared responsibility, proportional work and malpractice coverage that can follow the case if something goes wrong.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:00:34

I realized that these are all ticking time bomb like a firm was trying to unload these cases onto someone else and absolve themselves of responsibility. They were already past the statute of limitations. They had filed an extension to serve and file, and they had 60 days. And it was like they were almost at the end of it. And then as we were going through it, we found existing fees, split agreements like these cases had been referred to that firm. And I'm going through it. I'm like, they are packaging a bomb in a muffin here, and they're trying to hand it off to me in.

Jason D. Lazarus00:01:09

This episode, you'll learn why referral fees can create shared responsibility and expose your malpractice coverage if a case goes wrong. How to spot dangerous cases, and what to review before accepting a referral case. I'm Jason Lazarus and this is Trial Lawyer View. Chris, welcome to Trial Lawyer View. A little bit of a background question. You spent three years at center working directly with plaintiff firms, then launched LegalFlare in 2024. What were you watching firms do with their referrals that finally pushed you to build something, instead of just looking at the issues from the sidelines?

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:01:49

You know, I'd love to say that I actually saw some of that, but definitely I was on the sales and marketing, court reporting services side. And so I think I was I have to say, I learned something like revolutionary, enlightening. I had an epiphany, but I didn't really. It just taught me how to market to attorneys more than anything else, how to speak the language, how to, you know, communicate effectively, know your audience is the first thing. And if I had to pinpoint one single thing that I learned, it was model your pricing on the same as your customers, as your clients. And so that's why if you look at the competitors, they charge you up front. But I you know, being a law firm or contingency, same as everybody else, you know, don't nobody gets paid until everybody gets paid. And so I'd say that's that's probably the one big thing that I learned.

Jason D. Lazarus00:02:45

We'll get back to the show in just a moment. But let me ask you this. What if your firm could scale without adding operational drag as case volume grows, lien resolution and compliance compliantly slow everything down. Synergy works alongside personal injury firms as an operations partner, managing these processes so team stay focused on clients strategy and outcomes, not administrative details. If you want to understand how firms are handling this at scale, click the link in the show notes or scan the QR code on the screen to learn more. Now let's get back to the episode. What was it specifically about referrals? That picture interests and made you decide that LegalFlare was an opportunity in this space?

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:03:33

Hahahahahahahaha okay, so if I'm going to be completely honest, one, I'm fantastic at networking. I mean, if anyone who knows me, everyone who's seen me, everybody knows me, I'm trying to get out there as much as I can. And I wanted to in some way leverage the networking, but I when I was beginning to flirt with the idea of going back into a practice, I picked up a few clients. And that's when I realized I hate talking to clients like, I'm sorry, I'm just not cut out for it. You know, when they're like, calling me late at night, you know, Saturday night and, like, they're just going. They're going through it, and I. I'm just not I'm not built for that. And it was just wrecking me. And that's when I thought, well, how can I use my networking ability to, to still contribute meaningfully to the legal industry? And so that's when, someone, a friend called me and said, hey, I have a firm that needs help finding a lawyer in Nevada. You're you're the lawyer, right? It's like, well, yeah, I am, but like, I'm not practicing, but maybe I can I can help them, help connect them to a firm. And then that's when it occurred to me like, oh, I could you know, there's obviously a need here. So that's when I kind of stepped into it. And so, ever since then, I've just been like, solving problems. You know, I haven't been, like, trying, like, directing toward anything. I'm always asking, like, what else? What what what is another problem? I kind of found the area that I was good at, which was like networking and systems. And then I just listened to people and like, what do you what are your problems like? And I know it sounds kind of cliche, but people always tell you like, oh, I got this. You know, you know, client that's a pain in my ass. Or, you know, I've got this referral partner. I got to chase him down for a disbursement or something. And so I would just listen and, and, and in those moments, I would insert myself and say, I can do that for you. You know, let me let me try to do that. And so it just kind of, you know, follow the breadcrumbs. Right. Pull up, pull on the, the sweater string. And and it kind of leads you into that. And, and so going on that, so you've got referral partners that are sending them in. So I know you've got to have like horror stories where like they send some terrible client or they're trying to because Florida you've got the, the, the 2575 max. I mean, I'm sure you know out of state attorneys are probably asking for more than that or like they, you know, don't connect you with the client when they say they're going to. I mean, like if you have referral partners at, at referral partners or like girlfriends, you know, the more you have, the more problems you have. It sounds like a great thing to have, but really, you really you want to keep it down to like three maybe. And some people prefer to go down to one, which is where I fit in.

Jason D. Lazarus00:06:24

Yeah, thankfully, you know, I don't deal with that because I basically I'm, I'm dealing with another attorney who is maintaining the client relationship, and I'm just coming in for a very specialized area. But having dealt with enough trial lawyers over the years and have seen enough of those horror stories, you know, from the periphery of what I do, I, I get what you're talking about, and I'm, I'm curious if like, because, you know, you're six years post law school and most lawyers. And I was, you know, we're we're still trying to figure out what they wanted out of their career at that point. But you've got this conviction that this referral challenge was big enough to bet a law firm on this early in your career. What what is giving you that confidence?

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:07:19

I wake up drunk on confidence every morning. Like that's just who I am. Everybody who knows me, they know that I've got plenty of confidence to go around, and. And I think a lot of that comes from just not having been proven wrong enough times. And when I do make a mistake, like I, I'm able to learn from it. I think a lot of people fear failure, you know, and an embarrassment. And I've definitely felt that, you know, we all have the imposter syndrome. You know, if if I do this and oh, man, I really felt this like the first six months when I was like, I'm thinking about doing this. I was worried about telling people because I thought somebody was going to say, you idiot, you can't do that because blah blah, blah. That's why nobody else has ever done it before. I mean that because there was that gap. I thought, surely there has to be a reason. But then after just like talking to people and doing it, I haven't been proven wrong yet. And in those times when I did make a mistake, it's it's a moment for growth. And so I, I embrace my mistakes, for better or worse. So it's I would say that's what's given me the confidence. And then after a year and a half of really leaning into this, I when I meet people and I explain what I do and I see them like light up and they're like, oh my God, like, this is brilliant. I've been looking for someone like you who does this because, you know, I've tried these other networks and, and networks are just more problems, you know, and I want someone like who can actually handle this. So I'm not chasing people down. And that's how I know. Okay. Like I'm really addressing a need. And, that gives me confidence.

Jason D. Lazarus00:09:03

Great point about mistakes because it doesn't matter what type of business you're in and, you know, the imposter syndrome thing. And all those things are just part of the process of getting to the ultimate destination of a a business that is a success because there's many bumps along the road to to success, for sure. And it's great that you found this, this gap and niche. And I, I really get it like that. The idea of making things simpler for law firms, personal injury law firms, because they've got enough to deal with just managing personal injury. And that's part of our messaging, is around a you shouldn't have your team and you should definitely not be spending any time on health care lien resolution. It's it's an administrative function. And, you know, this is even, you know, more complex because you've got legal and ethical implications, financial implications, with a referral because it just is not simply a hand off. So I, I am curious, you know, when you partner with a personal injury firm, what is it that you are doing for that firm that they can't do by just putting something up on a survey? I need to connect with, a lawyer who will handle this case in this jurisdiction.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:10:35

If it were that easy, I wouldn't have a job. You know, it's. And so let's dive into this, because a lot of people do think it is that easy. Sure. You put it up, first of all, the people that are looking at those, not all of them are the best. If somebody came to you, how confident do you feel handing them off to someone that you've never met before? I mean, it's the equivalent of like, you know, I joke that like rough case referrals are not an old pair of shoes on eBay. You don't just send them out. And in most jurisdictions you have a either, you have to have proportional work. So you have to have done some work on it, or you have to have joint responsibility for the outcome. And that means, you know, if somebody screws this up, your malpractice insurance has to attach. So you can't just ship it off on top of that. Again, it is a person. And so how do you know that they're going to they're going to treat them well. And and if you don't know if you haven't done any prior vetting, you're the chances that you're actually going to get a good firm. I mean like one and 1 in 5, 1 in 6 maybe. And so I know, I know God, I know I've gone through so many where I send them and it's like, hey, I sent this over to you. Oh yeah. Sorry. I haven't had a chance to, you know, call that client like they've been waiting for you for two weeks. I've been emailing you. What have you been doing? You know, and and so having to go through this over and over, and it's like we were saying mistakes. There are so many problems, so many mistakes in this space. Because lawyers, lawyers are shit at running businesses. Let's be honest. Like, you can be great at running a practice, but you're terrible at running a business. And like you need to know that. And so choose a lane, pick a lane. Are you going to run a practice or are you going to run a business? And if you're going to have a business, you need to put somebody else there, you know? And like you can't do both. And so there's so much more into like vetting. How how do they want to sign the firm. Are they calling their clients. You know, are they, you know, updating regularly and so these are all things that people don't realize when they're just thinking, oh, mailbox money, I'll just ship this client off to someone else. And then, you know, I mean, go into I have compiled probably the most comprehensive database on, the rules of professional conduct related to referral fees, fees, but things like that. And they are littered with cases where relationships went sideways. That's just what it comes down to. And they found themselves in court and like, where they just air out all of their dirty laundry and like, that's what happens. But the thing is, it doesn't happen often enough for people to really know how bad it is. And so that's kind of like, you know, when if there were a slew of cases for every jurisdiction, we would know this is a very tightly regulated space, but there aren't there's like three, maybe four controlling cases, but referrals are I mean, like you said, you get referrals all the time. All the time. Pi firms, so many of them refer, you know, live off of this. And I'm monologuing. I sound like a super villain or something right now, but, like, that's it just gets me riled up because, people just need to do better.

Jason D. Lazarus00:13:43

So it's such a important point you bring out because as as someone who's been through my own personal injury case and experienced everything that a client goes through, it's intensely personal. And it is so important to have the right person representing you. And, you know, I was very lucky because I knew a ton of personal injury lawyers here in Orlando having, you know, worked here and lived here for a very long time before I got struck by a car while I was cycling. And, you know, I mean, the what you talked about really is, is so important because if you're going to refer a case not that puts me as an attorney, my reputation line for whoever is going to, you know, be on the other end of that referral. And if they don't treat the case correctly or they don't handle it the right way, I mean, those are that that's that's a, that, that's a black mark on me as the referring lawyer. So critical that, you know, you you've got someone in the middle like you can make sure that ultimately it's handled the right way.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:15:03

Yeah. Thanks I appreciate that. Like it's that there is there is such a gap there. Like it's it's a space and it's, it's so I mean it's basically in the shadows and and nobody's paying attention. Nobody's really regulating it just because the problems so come up and you're right now imagine that you weren't an attorney and you didn't know anyone and and that happened to you. It's all of that doubt of like, are they working on this case? Are they any good? I haven't heard from my attorney in a month. Like, do they even exist? And, you know, having having the right firm to take care of those people, it it means a lot to, to that person. And, that's, that's my way of, of contributing, you know, don't call me, don't call me on Saturday night like I don't I don't want to hear your problems, but I will take care of you in the shadows, like, that's that's where I operate.

Jason D. Lazarus00:15:53

So I wanted to ask you about this kind of idea of lost revenues because, I, I think just from, you know, anecdotally, working with law firms, you know, for almost 30 years now, a lot of firms seem to have stocks have declined and out of state cases that they treat as having no value. And I'm curious, from your perspective, what do discipline firms actually do with those files and what is the revenue? Most pie firms are walking away from without realizing it as it relates to that. Yeah.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:16:31

Great question. And and that really goes to the heart of it. So nobody's intake is perfect, right? And some law firms may know that some law firms may not. And, and how do you know? I, I speak to so many firms and I say, what are you what are your conversion rates? And they will say something like, oh, we sign 90% of all cases we want. You have a biased sample size. Oh, okay. That's that's what that is. I have firms all of the time that send me cases. They're like here, you know, we decline these. We don't think there's any value. But like I goes I go through them, you know, like the discount DVDs at Walmart, you know, because there's some value in there. And what it really takes is a firm that's going to look at each, you know, case summary and ask like, well, what what didn't what line didn't they pursue. You know, what questions didn't they ask? Because a lot of firms will just look at it and say, oh, you know, disputed liability or, you know, not enough, not enough, you know, medicals here, you know, no medicals listed. And so they just pass them off. And then, you know, my firms that I've partnered with, they know note I call these people and say, hey just want to follow up on this. Like can you tell me a little bit more? So you didn't go to the doctor? No, no, no I did. I, I left in an ambulance. Oh wait, it you left in an ambulance. Yeah. Yeah. Why didn't you tell the other person? Well, you know, they asked me if I saw a doctor, you know, recently or something, and I haven't been, you know, in the past, like three days. It's like. Well, like it. You got it. Just like, just ask, just know to ask those questions. And even the best firms aren't going to ask the right questions 100% of the time. And so it's really about having layers of redundancy, because a lot of people will call firms and they'll say, you don't have a case, and then they'll say, okay, all right, well, you know, thanks for your time. And then they don't do anything about it when they actually do need help. But because they either didn't ask the right questions or, you know, the the clients didn't provide the right answers. And so that's I mean, that's a lot of it is. So I don't know, ask questions and always try to find the case. Always think what am I missing? What am I missing. And you know, I think a lot of firms try to just confirm like this isn't a case. They're looking for reasons that it's not a case and that's not the right approach.

Jason D. Lazarus00:18:52

I'm curious. I wanted to ask you about your approach with LegalFlare. And it's built as a law firm, not a technology platform. And seems like now there's more and more what I'm seeing of these technology platforms for referrals. Why does that distinction matter to a referring lawyer, and what does it let you do that a marketplace simply cannot do?

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:19:21

I'm not going to knock on the networks. There are a lot of, you know, great attorneys, you know, great firms who are on those networks and they can help people. And if if you are referring out cases on those networks, it is much better to find the best attorneys. I just just work with those directly, you know, and like establish those relationships. But you're still establishing those relationships with all of those firms. You know, if you don't know someone in that state and you're just like blindly going on this network and hoping that the network is doing a good job vetting them, you are wrong because they do that. Well, they don't they don't do enough vetting. I will say that much. And and I know this because I, when I was first trying this, you know, I tried a few of the networks and to, to test this, what what we did was we put, our phone numbers as the as the client. We did we did client tests. And so we sent out these cases that were, like, marginal, but it would show us, like, who wants to sign these? Who's going to try? So we put we put our phone number in and we had, I would say probably about a third of them could not reach client. Are you sure? Yeah. You think so? And so that was that was our first way of realizing they're not doing any vetting. Like anybody can hop on this network, and, you know, you send the case to them and, you know, it's it's it's just like I said, more referral partners means means more problems, you know. And so that's that's how we're different. We monitor we do the vetting. We have performance metrics. If someone isn't isn't living up, isn't performing up to our benchmarks, we have that conversation where it's like, hey, sorry. You know, you've you've been deprioritized and, don't call us. We'll call you. So that's that's the difference.

Jason D. Lazarus00:21:20

Well, you just touched on something that, I wanted to ask you about, which is your the way you you approach this is unique. You're taking cases on a contingency, tattooing your own malpractice coverage, putting your own license on the line with every file. That's definitely different. And, you know, most of the models out there try to remove the referring firm from the the chain entirely. Why insert yourself into that rather than pulling yourself out of it like most of these models do?

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:21:56

If we're going to talk from a business standpoint, it's it's great proof that we're all accountable. Race. But we've got four principles hospitality, efficiency, accountability and transparency. You got to be accountable. Like if you're going to send a case and so in I'll speak, specifically about a case, that I tried to move three cases that I tried to move a month ago. Can't give specifics, but, they were they were sent to us. They look like great cases. Okay. And so, so reaching out to my firms. Hey, you know, and we do it sequentially. We don't, you know, shop them at the same time. But I was like, hey, I've got these cases. I'm going through them right now, but can you be ready to take a look at these with me? And so I'm going through them. And I realized that these are all ticking time bomb, like a firm was trying to unload these cases onto someone else. And absolve themselves of responsibility. They, they were already past the statute of limitations. They had filed, an extension to, to serve and file and like, they had 60 days and it was like they were almost at the end of it. And then as we were going through it, we found, existing split agreements like these, these cases had had been referred to that firm. And, and I'm going through it. I'm like, this is they are packaging, you know, a bomb in a muffin here. And they're trying to hand it off to me. And, so I went back to them and said, you know, I need all of these things. I need all of these sign off. So I'm not I'm not touching them. And we went back and forth, trying to get everything ironed out so that we could safely move these cases out. And, the firm didn't want to. It didn't didn't wasn't willing to relinquish, what they needed to, read, thehe percentage and to move these cases. And so I was like, look, I can't like, I would love to take this out of your hands, believe me, but I can't give this to someone else. I can't give your problems to someone else. So. And they said, okay, sorry. All right, well, we're just not going to send them through you. And good like so I am that added layer of protection. I am the one doing the due diligence. And you know, I on from the business perspective, on the ethical perspective. I gotta sleep at night. You know, I mean, like those 4 or 5 hours of, of sleep that I get every night. I want them to be, you know, deep sleep. And if I'm just, like, pushing people off and, like, handing time bombs out to people, like, I'm kind of a monster.

Jason D. Lazarus00:24:30

That's such an interesting point. You just raise the ticking time bomb the most law firms have a way of vetting that because I would think not like that. You might not see it until it's too late, especially with a statute about to run or, you know, depending on what's disclosed as part of the referral to DoD. That in and of itself is such a huge risk that I would think now, maybe, you know, it's not as big of an issue because most of the firms that are doing referrals have some, you know, relationship and not sort of buck, you know, like, like you're talking about a list inquiry like that could be like a super dangerous trap in my mind.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:25:19

Yeah. And tell me you don't see it all the time. All the time. Hey, does anybody know an X in which in which state? That can take this no raise. Like. Yeah. Call this guy. Call this guy. What do we know about that? And what do we know about you? Like, there's there's just so much there. And you're right, a lot of firms either you know, they've got, you know, their referral. They're, they've got like someone who's often not an attorney looking over their referral department or its intake or the problem is they don't know what questions to ask. Like it just goes back to experience, you know. Right. You've you've done it. You're running a business Synergy. Like, tell me all of the solutions you've provided haven't come from like running into a mistake or a problem. Right. It's just like, oh man, now I know to ask. Like, hey, I need to see the the consent to associate before I can move this. I got to see, like, wait, you know, what you've agreed to or, you know, I need the entire case file so I can see what you've done. Hey, you know, I noticed that you didn't include the incident date. Do you mind if I ask what date that was? And so there are just so many questions that you learn to ask because you didn't originally know to ask. You know, I mean, of course, we all, we always know to ask about statute of limitations. But there are others, you know, I only see the CTA.

Jason D. Lazarus00:26:36

Another good segue, cause I, I'm interested in what you see in terms of the way most firms handle referrals today versus the same way you would handle it. Where is the operational and legal exposure actually live in, the way lawyers do it without you involved?

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:27:02

Oh, okay. Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say is tell me about all of the pitfalls. And and you said this this podcast goes for eight hours. Is that. You got it.

Jason D. Lazarus00:27:14

Now. We got we got a long time.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:27:15

Yeah. So, I mean, one of the first things is like. Get the get the consent to contact, you know, I mean if, if it's someone that hasn't been signed, you know, you need to get the consent to the cut to contact. Otherwise you're violating, you know, the non solicitation rules and that's that's like an easy one. But most people don't don't realize it. So when they pick up and are like who from where. No. And then all it takes is a quick call to the bar association. And then, you know, getting all of the details, you know, letting these people know that someone might be calling, those are on the front side. I would say getting all of the documentation handed over if there is documentation. And, and it varies, whether it's, unsigned lead or whether it's a transfer, of a signed client. And then I think where I see the, the biggest error, and probably because it's the, the heart of so many disputes that that pop up in, in opinions in court cases is did we get the agreement in writing. Like what are the referral fees. Get those in writing to get the client to sign as well. Because you know, that's that's a big one. And most firms are just working on handshakes and a lot of firms, if you asked and they're like, yeah, I had a guy goes, you know, go sideways on me. And so you need those there. And then when it comes time to disperse, we have to have an itemization of the settlement and of all disbursements, all costs. And so what we do, we have all of that. And so as soon as the settlement is listed, we ask, where's the itemization? Let me see everything. Let me compare all of these. I, me make sure the numbers are correct. And even with our best firms, our best firms, our most reliable partners, we still have to double check, because every now and then we'll come back and say, hey, sorry. You know, that there's an error here. You know, it's just simple math error. I know we're all lawyers, you know, but you had this here. Like, we need to correct this before we can sign off on it. And most people just aren't aren't looking, you know, or, you know, when they are looking, it's because they got, you know, half of what they expected. And now suddenly we're all in litigation and, you know, we're we're going to have a rule named after us.

Jason D. Lazarus00:29:28

Well, I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit because of my area of expertise. And there is some precedent out there, with Medicare in particular, that if you refer a case to another firm, you are not absolved of exposure or liability. If that firm that is the recipient doesn't resolve the Medicare conditional payment. And, you know, I'm I'm thinking along the lines of what we do means that, you know, there is this kind of latent exposure for firms that refer cases to other firms, like with Medicare, Medicaid, some of these other, government, plans. I'm curious if there's any discussions about like that. Kind of because I know you're talking about reviewing the the closing statements, that kind of procedural stuff so that, you know, those sorts of issues can be addressed before they become a problem.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:30:36

Okay. I mean, let's, let's, let's pull this one apart a little bit and, and, I, I see the parallel. I mean, I don't, I don't currently touch any Medicare, cases because even the word just terrifies me. So my my hat is off to you. And if you're, if you're, you know, working two businesses or you've got both hands in this, like my hero. Okay. So basically joint responsibility is, I think what you're, you're talking about, right. You know, if, if a malpractice suit pops up. Okay. So so this is usually how it would work. One firm, you know, screws the pooch. They, they, they blow up, blow a deadline, and now the case is dead in the water, you know, and it was a good case. And this person goes and complains to the bar, or they complain to an attorney who is like, there's a case here, you know, there's a malpractice case, and somebody needs to be held accountable. I mean, which I am all in favor for if some if you cause harm to someone else, it is your responsibility to pay up. So which type of firm do you think is more likely to blow a deadline? A, a large, well oiled like firm that has it all together, or one of these smaller like, boutique mom and pop shops, you know, because a lot of firms, it's a cottage industry. And so, hey, I don't you know, I don't take this kind of case. Do you take this kind of case? Yeah. We'll take this kind of case. And then there's a handoff and then they, you know, proceed to forget all about that case. So in certain states, assuming that they signed everything or they followed the rules, but it'll still attach no matter what. So there is joint responsibility. And then these smaller firms either a they, don't have enough coverage or B, they don't have any coverage for whatever reason. And so just like we do, let's, let's, you know, follow the trail where, where who's got the pockets. And that's when your malpractice would attach, you know, if that other firm just doesn't have enough to cover this and you referred it, now you're on the hook because you gave a client somebody's phone number, you know, you told them to call. And so and that's, that's how when it when it does when it does happen, that's how it happens.

Jason D. Lazarus00:32:54

I think the point is, is that there's exposure liability. And, you know, in my book making sure that you are analyzing not as whichever part of that equation you are, because, I mean, that's part of what we talk about in terms of risk mitigation, you know, making sure that you've got your file closed. Compliantly when it comes to Medicare, as an example. So yeah, that's and since we're on that topic, I mean, I my understanding is, is that as part of your practice, you vet every firm in your network, malpractice coverage, professional standards, disciplinary history before you onboard them. I'm curious, what has surprised you about how the industry operates once you started doing real due diligence on receiving firms?

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:33:47

This is something that, you know, since we've since I've been at it longer. It's something, that I'm better at. But just because someone has malpractice insurance and no history of bar complaints or anything doesn't mean that they're a good attorney. You know, we all know that the bar is in most states. Florida is is a little more on the proactive side, but in most states, the bar is very reactive, like there's waiting for the phone call. And then even even then, if they run up against a firm that is well-funded, like they're they're just going to be outmatched. They're not going to have the resources to like, you know, really go to the mats on on these issues. And so vetting the firms, everything looks great. Everybody seems like they know what they're doing. What? One firm comes to mind, I won't mention their name, but they're a very large firm, seem to have everything together. And then when we started working with them, it was like their whole system was just like, fishnet hose, you know, like, has, like, you know, a month in and there were just so many ways that they were dropping clients, dropping files like it was. It was a nightmare. And they passed all of our pretax, and it seemed like they would be a really great firm. And, after we made about, five, five, transfers through them and we realized, like, how bad all of this was, we, we actually went to them and said, like, look, we're not sending you anymore. And in all honesty, I don't feel great about you having these cases. You know, we're going to hound you about these constantly. And we did. I mean, we were on them on a weekly basis because I'm not taking any chances, you know, most of the time it's like, give me an update every, every 30 days. But with this firm, it was like weekly, what's happening, what's going on? And we did it so much that they were actually like, we think it would be better if we spoke to the clients and handed them off to to someone else, and I don't want to do that. I mean, this is, you know, this this would have been the second transfer that they went through. But for this firm, I was like, I know just the people like, give me a week, I will offload all of these for you. And and so that's, you know, that's the added step of like not just like handing someone off and then like not paying attention, you know, it's it's your responsibility. What's going on here. Follow up. And when when the a firm doesn't turn out to be who you think they are that's that's when you have to take those extra steps. And I hope I never have to do that again. But I'm sure working in this business long enough, it's inevitable.

Jason D. Lazarus00:36:25

You know, unfortunately, there's there's always going to be those those instances in business where you realize you're, you're working with someone that you shouldn't or don't want to work with.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:36:36

If I can ask Synergy. Right. And so you're trying to resolve some of these liens with other firms. And so it requires, communication, a lot of communication. Right, with, with firms with office staff, things like that.

Jason D. Lazarus00:36:53

Oh yeah.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:36:54

And it has been my experience that, that is the biggest sticking point. So much of my system is built around automation. My, my files, everything is moving around. It's all automated. I've built it all myself so that where it does not require a human, it does not it does not include a human. But you're relying on all those communications. So let's let's turn it around on you, Jason. Like, tell me, how much do you love communicating with office staff about all of these, like, liens and stuff? Do you find that they often, respond to you as quick as as they should? Like? What is your biggest sticking point when it comes to that aspect of this?

Jason D. Lazarus00:37:34

Well, should is, I think, a relative term, right? Like when you look at what sitting on a paralegal or case managers play, it leans, you know, are are just one of a million things which is part of our, you know, argument to law firms why it shouldn't even be sitting on their, their teams. Players should be completely, you know, outsourced to, to a company like Synergy or, you know, some of the other quality companies that do what we do, the client communication piece, we've done what you've described, which is we've got a client portal that allows clients to self service to, you know, communicate in a, in a digital way to upload, to download, to see with transparency exactly what's going on with any case that they've referred to Synergy and continue to build. We just recently built some AI powered technology around verifying leads. And, you know, all of those things are meant to make it easier for the law firm because we really want to remove that burden and liability from them completely. But it still does require some meeting human communication and human interaction. And that, as you've said, is and can be a challenge because everybody's so busy, you know, and especially in a, in a successful personal injury practice, that's that's just the reality. Their, their staff is frequently overburdened. So it can be it can be a challenge getting information in a timely manner to to ultimately do our job. But that's part of just what you have to deal with and accept and find ways of improving. And we just have a culture of constant improvement, and we get a lot of customer feedback, and we just continue to focus on customer experience and how do we make that easier and easier. But there'll always be, you know, back and forth. We it with the lienholders do can only automate so much. At least right now. I mean we'll see where it all where it all goes. But for now they're still humans talking to humans.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:39:49

I'm very much into AI and building everything on a daily basis. Like I am like probably 80% robot now, but my business would be ten times as big as it is right now. If I didn't have to ever speak to people. It's like it's it's just how it is because people are slow. You're right. They're doing other things like they're they're worried about other things. And as the market consolidates, as we begin to see like private equity coming in, what's happening is, you know, the margins in, in, you know, especially personal injury. But in the legal industry, the margins are feeling this pressure and they're shrinking. And as a result, we have to become more efficient. And so the days of the paralegal that does everything that's not efficient, you know, everything has to become an assembly line. We have to automate as much as we can, has to, you know, people have to be able to handle more. And a lot of times that means narrowing the subject and and and that's exactly what what Synergy does. Right? That's exactly what your LegalFlare does. We say let let us take this component that is difficult. That's not necessarily your expertise and let us handle it. And that way we're all more efficient. And it's just a natural evolution of things. But the days of the old mom and pop, you know, personal injury firm or employment law firm, they're just they're numbered. And we're going to begin seeing them either, you know, there's going to be a great dying, an extinction level event, or they're going to get eaten up by all of the the larger law firms. And mark my words, is this is coming, especially Jason, ten, 15, 20 years when, autonomous vehicles reduce the number of accidents by, you know, 98%, what are you going to do? Like if you're running an inefficient, you know, the days of the inefficient, high margin, law firm are, you know, numbered.

Jason D. Lazarus00:41:51

Yeah. The technology is developing so fast that. Yeah, the pace is staggering. I mean, even just trying to keep up with it myself, with how I use AI every single day is like you, I do the same thing. It is it's tough. And that does bring up a question in my mind as we see AI driven intake models and marketplace platforms being pushed into personal injury. And I, I actually attended CPA's conference last year and was like blown away by that technology, what it's doing. And, I'm curious, how do you see that impacting the, economy or economics of referrals and how will that shift over the next 3 to 5 years, and how do firms position themselves now? So that they're not flat footed with what's going on?

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:42:54

Yeah. Okay. So oh, there's a lot of ways to pull this apart. And I've got a follow up question for you. So so don't run away. Okay. Perfect. So how is this going to affect firms? We all have to become more efficient. We have to take those those components that we are best at and, and, and just maximize the value that we can get out of them. And anything else that that doesn't have the highest, return on investment we need to outsource. Like, does this make the most amount of money for the time you invest and the effort you invest? And if not, give it to someone else because otherwise you're shortchanging yourself. So the way I see it, and this might be slightly contrarian, but again, I'm I'm deeper into AI than 99.99% of people. AI is not the solution. Everybody thinks the AI is the solution. It's going to it's going to handle all of your problems. That is wrong. I will help you build the solution to your problems. That's what it is. So is AI running? Running my law firm? Oh God no God. I mean like, does, You know, I wish that were true, but I have to keep an eye on my robots more than I have to keep an eye on. You know, my partners. That's just how it is. But what I use them for the most is building these automations, building these workflows, building my case portal. So that's something I need. I need it to be secure. I need it to be transparent, intuitive. And two years ago I tried speaking to a, to a a design firm. I've what their name was, but, they wanted to charge me 250,000, and they were like. And we'll give you a minimum viable product for this. And I was like, oh my God. I'm going back to my, my email, you know, my inbox and Google Sheets. Like, that's just what's going what it's going to have to be for a little while and then suddenly, and really the advanced like what dropped was called code. And now I build all of this myself. I built a web page for a webinar that I gave yesterday. If if I went to someone two years ago and asked them to build this web page for me in the time that I gave them, they probably would've charged me $5,000. No joke. I built it in four hours. Sophisticated parallax scrolling. It had a widget in the bottom where you could ask questions like it's links up and down, incredibly sophisticated. It took me four hours. And so what is my problem? My problem is I need a better way to convey communicate, to convey a message. And the the solution isn't I. The solution is a web page that that provides all of this information that anyone can access. That's the solution. I simply help me to build that solution in an incredibly short amount of time. So anyone that's coming to you and saying, just say I handle this like I handle this, they are charlatans and snake oil salesmen. But what you will be able to do is hire someone in-house who will be able to go around and look at your problems, look at your points of friction and say, okay, we can build a small solution here. This will handle this. It will automatically root these or it'll automatically produce this. When that's not I doing it as I building a solution. So Jason I'm turning it back around on you. You said you said you're you're you're getting into it. And obviously Synergy like if you want to keep up, if you want to advance, like you're going to have to embrace this. In what ways are you utilizing AI?

Jason D. Lazarus00:46:40

You know, really it's primarily around organizing and structuring data and pulling data out of volumes. And volumes of information. Right? Because we're not all that different from a law firm. We have less information and data that than they do on these particular cases. But, you know, for example, if you're evaluating in a reselling, you have to go through an RSA plan, and those are long documents. But there's key things that I can look for within those documents that we can then use as leverage to reduce that lead. So before I what would happen? People would actually have to really, you know, the whole document, find that language and then craft the arguments. Well, you don't need to do that anymore, right? That that is strictly you know, we we've got all this proprietary data dating back to 2008 when the company started that were able to leverage all of that information and data to help our clients get the the best results for the injured party in terms of their net proceeds, because these leads, you know, are can eat away at net. And that net is the only thing that is going to take care of this person for the rest of their lives, because unfortunately, money is the only way we compensate the injured. So, you know, the these what we're using is technology to accelerate and enhance what we what the human in the loop does. Because, you know, in what we do, the human in the loop has to stay because you need you need someone with subrogation experience and knowledge to craft the arguments with the help of the technology solution. So, you know, and then automation of workflow. Right. That that's the such low hanging fruit. And we've, we've we've been building tools. And that was what led us because we're building internal tools, led us to a commercially viable product for law firms to deploy on every single line that they have in their firm by identifying and verifying all of those using technology. Because that that's something we've always done with humans, but now we're able to use technology to do that completely because you know, that that is a perfect application of of technology. So it's certainly an exciting time to be able to see how you can leverage it. But you're spot on that. You know, ultimately AI is is building the it's an infrastructure to be able to do this not doing you my.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:49:33

Robots go sideways all the time like it's I have to supervise them so hard. And and you're right. What it really comes down to is, AI is all knowledge, no experience. And and so, like I, I've done all this research on all these rules of professional conduct across all the jurisdictions. I pulled out everything. I've passed them every single which way I can. And when I converse with Claude, you know, to, to kind of go through with these and help me understand everything. Like, doesn't always understand like precedence or wait or, you know, there's just things like, yeah, I know that's in there, but nobody ever enforces that. You're reading, a law from 1867, like, let's let's be honest, it doesn't apply anymore. Nobody's enforced it. Like, it's just because it's there doesn't mean it holds as much weight as something that came out last year. And it's the real value is, data compression, you know, and, and data, data transfer, like, so we have asymmetries in where the data is, the information is and where it needs to be. And before, like if it was like stuck in a file cabinet somewhere, that meant somebody had to, like go through all of these files, which is like, you know, data depth and then like, send it to someone, like through mail or like fax or something, which is like that. That data is asymmetry and the inefficiency and transfer. And so now everything is compressed where you just say, hey, find me this file, find me whatever, and it finds it right away. You don't have to dig very deep because I can go and find it for you and then send it to wherever, and it goes through email, or, you know, they can move it to exactly the person they need to through whatever system you have. And so now it's just moving data around so much quicker. But you're right, we still need humans because there always has to be that level of experience to say, no, no, no, that's not the right one. You know? I know it has those words in the right order, but that's not what I need or you know, and so without humans to, you know, guide the robots, we we'd all be and, in a lot of trouble.

Jason D. Lazarus00:51:38

So, a couple more questions for wrap up. If a personal injury firm listening to this wants to do nothing more than make sure that they tighten up how the firm handles referrals starting next week, what are the first 2 or 3 things they should implement or change to make sure that they address whatever the greatest exposures are?

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:52:05

Yeah, okay. Man, I love this. I've done a lot of research on like, who my who my, audience is. And so let's let's think about it this way. Is your audience problem aware or are they problem unaware? You know, do they do they know they have a problem? And so for the unaware, it would be, you know, look into your conversion rates or look into your referral department. Are you receiving cases or are you sending cases. Who are your partners. And, and really begin to pull this apart and say like, okay, who who is running this department? Do I have a paralegal doing it, or do I have someone dedicated to doing it? Or am I doing it myself? Because the more responsibilities that that person has, the less efficient they are going to be. That's just a fact. And so after you begin to look at that, then begin to ask what are our systems? What are our processes for monitoring? All of this, you know, is someone is someone is the person in charge asking like, okay, let me see the CTA when you send it over or let's get the fee split agreements, you know, all outlined. Do we have a master fee agreement for when this firm sends us or when we send them, so that when the fee split is signed to, like, do they have the the correct numbers? Do we have a way of preparing the client for that handoff? You know, do we have a way of monitoring all of this as it goes through? If they sign it, you know, what are the case phases? What are the filing deadlines? And so the really the best thing to think of it, if you I mean, if we're going to do anything, it's like, what do we do when we have a case? What are all of the most important components of that case? And then how do we get the firm that we sent it to or the firm that sent it to us? How do we convey that, that information with them and then just mirror it? You know, if just like you'd pay your client, you know, you give them an itemized, document, you know, here's how much you recovered, here's how much we spent, here's how much you know, we make. And if you've got another party in that, do that for them as well. And so that's going from problem unaware to problem aware. Now if you go through that and you realize, man, I've got a ton of problems here, then we're talking solution unaware to solution aware. If you've got good partners they're, they're they're very good at this. But you don't have the technology. Then you know, by all means hop on one of those networks where you have established relationships or something like that, where there's you've already put work into developing the relationships. You already have these processes, and you just need a way of streamlining it. Those networks are going to be great for you. You know, as long as you're still using the partners. And if it's something more than that, we don't have those relationships. That's when they would give me a call and that's, you know, or just call the expert, stop trying to do it yourself. Call the expert. But you know, everybody, everybody's smarter than the next guy. So I'll I'll turn it back around on you. Jason, I like because this will help me to. How do I know when I should refer someone to Synergy? What? What are the key words? What are the components? When I would say, oh, shit. Hey, you should call Jason. Hold on. Let me, let me let me, let me get him on the phone.

Jason D. Lazarus00:55:17

Well, I think it, like you said, depends on your audience, right. If it's law firm CEOs and CEOs, it's, you know, are you looking at your firm's, allocation of resources, your your workload, your profitability in terms of what your team is able to handle at scale and do every day? If you are, you would see that the time spent doing these tasks is time that your team should not be spending on that. If it's a trial lawyer in a smaller practice, it may be, hey, you've got, you know, challenging Medicare compliance issues or you've got, you know, a resilience that your team doesn't have the experience to fight the recovery contractors that you got to deal with. You have thousands of employees whose job it is every day to take as much money as they can. From your client settlement. You need experienced some bro busters like our Team synergies team to do that for you. So it depends on your audience. But you know, really it boils down to efficiency of a law firm. These administrative tasks, removing them from the staff, getting better outcomes and mitigating risk. And ultimately providing the best customer experience you can. Because the last thing a client sees is the closing statement. And those leads that detract from net can impact, you know, what type of Google rating you get from your client. So, you know, you got to think about things through the lens of to client experience and and also your client what what is going to get the best outcome for your client. That's going to be the most money they can net, because that's all they need to take care of themselves in the future, because that's all the system provides for them.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:57:18

Yeah, yeah, I love this. And I think we we are we share the same audience. But I just want to confirm it. Would you say that your audience on the average is problem unaware or problem aware?

Jason D. Lazarus00:57:32

I think the audience is generally problem aware or, you know, I mean, we when we talk to firms, we generally get yeah, this makes a ton of sense. And they just have not done the due diligence to outsource what should be outsourced. And they're really, in theory should be no law firms dealing with leads because it's a specialized area. It carries risk. And ultimately people like us can get a better outcome for the injured party, which is what the lawyer is charged with achieving is the best possible outcome for that client. And so yeah, I think generally they are a problem where it's just for whatever reason. And I'm sure it's similar for you. Lawyers have always handled it a certain way and they just continue to do that even though there are better ways to do.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.00:58:27

It that gets at it. So if they know it's a problem, but they continue to do it, and lawyers on the average are inert. They are inert buyers, right? There's not momentum there. So if they are problem aware then it sounds like they are solution unaware. Like they know this is a problem but they don't. They haven't thought like, well, how am I going to solve this? I don't know, we've always done it ourselves. So whatever. And then so the communication the that, that I really focus on, you know, is who is the audience problem on who, where or where. And then are they solution unaware or solution aware. And it sounds to me solution unaware. So it's just a matter of getting in front of enough people so you can say, hey dummy, you know, there's this is the solution. This makes sense. Like, think about this. And, you know, understanding our audiences, especially with an inert, you know, a defensive, you know, buyer. It's it's tough, you know, but we all we all make decisions emotionally and then justify them logically.

Jason D. Lazarus00:59:28

But I do think we're at a tipping point in terms of this idea around outsourcing. And the adoption curve seems to be, you know, in a hockey stick phase. And I think part of that is being driven by technology. Part of it is being driven by what's going on with private equity entering the space and and MSOs and ABS models and what happened with Covid. All of these things have turned into a momentum changer, where you've got more firms really looking at how do we how do we do more with less? And, you know, you see it with the investment. I mean, so personal injury firm heavy because, you know, law firms that are on a contingency basis anything they can do to enhance the bottom line is an accelerant for them, you know, versus an hourly where they're just passing it along to to the end user. So I do think we're at a thankfully for us and probably for you to a tipping point where law firms are going, we need better solutions to make this more seamless, get the best results and be more profitable.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.01:00:41

Yeah, it's not up to them anymore. It's not. It's not a decision that they get to make anymore. It's a decision that they will have to make. And it's just if if they realize it, maybe they'll stick around. If they don't, well answers itself.

Jason D. Lazarus01:01:01

Well. So final question I was asked. This is my guess. It's open ended. You can answer it however you see fit. As an attorney and someone experienced in the nuance and challenges of personal injury referrals, what is your view from where you sit? Because you sit in a unique spot and you see things that are unique. So I'm curious about your view.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.01:01:25

It's hard not to get jaded sometimes. Are you are you are you familiar with, Cassandra? So she was, the sister of, I think, Helen of Troy, I think. And, and so she was cursed with, foresight, like, she could she could see the future. But where the curse came in was no one would ever believe her. And I feel that. I feel that in my soul. And and on the one hand, it does. It makes this a a special moment for me. Because if everybody saw it, everybody would be doing it. I wouldn't have a business. But on the other hand, like when I'm like screaming about these things that are coming, you know, autonomous vehicles, I, you know, the, the market consolidation and nobody's paying attention or they downplay me. And, you know, Cassandra was the one that said, don't let that wooden horse into the city walls. There are people in there. And, they were like, shut up. What do you need? It's a horse. It's a gift. We'll be fine. And and that and and you know, they all that it didn't work out well for them. But that's how I feel sometimes. And and maybe that's a, you know, not a very specific answer, but it, it just, it means that, like, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who realizes that the house is on fire and, you know, whatever I'll make I'll make money selling water bottles. In the meantime.

Jason D. Lazarus01:02:59

As we conclude the episode, if you can explain to the audience exactly what LegalFlare does and the best way to get in contact with you if they need your services.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.01:03:09

Yeah. Simplest thing, more referral partners is not the solution. More referral partners is the problem. You want less referral partners or ideally one because like I said, referral partners like girlfriends. You have enough of them like they're going to murder you. So just anybody can reach out to me. I mean, like, you know, say my name three times in a dimly lit bathroom and I'll show up, you know, or, you know, Chris Rose at LegalFlare.com. So. Or any conference. It seems like I met like 6 or 7 conferences simultaneously. I don't know how I do it.

Jason D. Lazarus01:03:47

Or LinkedIn or any of those.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.01:03:49

Yeah, I'm telling all of them.

Jason D. Lazarus01:03:51

Yeah, exactly. Well, Chris, thanks for joining me today on the podcast. And we'll see everybody on the next episode of Trial Lawyer View.

Chris F.N. Rose, Esq.01:03:59

Jason, I appreciate you having me. This was, this was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it.